NPR featured a recent study that showed that domestic dogs are genetically optimized to digest carbohydrates, unlike their wolf ancestors. This is cool; it seems to fall in line with what many biologists are now thinking- that dogs weren’t intentionally domesticated by people, but rather domesticated themselves by adapting to living near humans, and living off of the human waste stream.
It further explains why dogs can do at least ok, if not thrive, off of kibble, which is largely made up of grain sources. Wolves cannot: when fed dog kibble, they decline in health, and ultimately cannot reproduce. Wolves require a diet high in animal proteins to fuel their big frames and large brains. 
For those of us who make dog food at home, this is helpful new information. Many people have felt compelled to mimic a wolf’s diet, thinking that they should return to what’s biologically appropriate for a dog’s ancestors to best feed the dog. But reproducing the high-meat diet of wolves is expensive and difficult! This gives new credence to the idea that including grain in most dogs’ diets is fine, if not optimal for the typical dog. It’s certainly much more affordable and feasible than doing a mostly-meat diet.
January 28, 2013 at 3:39 pm
We make our own dog food around here too, but the only pup who gets grains is my little one with a liver problem. Everyone else gets a meaty bone for breakfast and a mix of ground chicken necks, organs, and veggies for dinner. At one time, I did the math and it turned out to be way cheaper than good quality kibble.
January 29, 2013 at 12:53 am
Wolves and kibble. Have you seen the movie “The Gray” (Liam Neeson)? There’s a situation where a few bags of Kibbles ‘n Bits would have come in mighty handy! I might add, too, a wolf”s livestyle is more austere and physically demanding than that of Canis domesticus, thus the need to be fueled by large portions of protein. I know the book is fiction, but I wonder if Buck, in “Call of the Wild,” could have survived on a diet of kibble?? Or is it as true of dogs as of humans: “You can’t go home again.”TMJ
January 29, 2013 at 4:40 am
Kaela, how many pounds of dogs do you feed? When I first started making my own food, I did the math, and definitely confirmed that it was cheaper than kibble. I suspect even more so today- it seems that though dog food prices have stayed stable, the bags keep getting smaller! 😀
Since I have about 300 lbs of dogs to feed, I definitely need the grain to make it more affordable and manageable.
January 29, 2013 at 4:51 am
TMJ, I think I watched that movie in the background and thought it was a bit over the top, but I see what you mean that kibble might have been advantageous to the protagonists.
There is a lot of modern study pointing to the fact that even feral domestic dogs (now re-named Canis lupus familiaris) can easily live off of junk. So it’s not just couch dogs, but all wild junkyard dogs, in all regions of the world. They have smaller brains, frames, and teeth, all pointing to the fact that they are no longer true carnivores, but have become scavengers instead.
Not to mention their behavior model is now more scavenger. That’s another fallacy to which many dog trainers still cling- the “wolf pack theory”. But domestic dogs (feral counterparts included) don’t exhibit much pack behavior anymore. They act more selfish and independent, like raccoons and the likes.
January 29, 2013 at 5:24 am
I only feed about half that poundage (plus 4 cats), but 3 of the 6 dogs have allergies and yeasty skin problems. I wish I could cut with grain, but I suspect most of the dogs would just explode.
My basic chicken mix works out to less than a dollar a pound. Good quality kibble these days can run upwards of 2.50/lb. I’d say it’s cheaper. It is a bit of a time commitment plus we have a meat grinder and 2 chest freezers.
January 30, 2013 at 5:07 am
I think it’s hard to compare the price per lb, because dog kibble is dry weight.My dogs eat way more poundage per day on homemade food, but that’s because it’s full of water weight.
But to me, that always implies something about quality – if kibble is $2.50/lb dry weight, that means that originally, it was only something like $0.25/lb fresh (in order for them to process it, package it, market it, and still make a profit). What kind of quality ingredients can you get for that price? Certainly not decent meat… So we have to conclude that kibble is mostly made up of grains, other vegetable matter, and very crummy meat waste that has no value elsewhere.
When I did the comparison calcs before, I weighed how much kibble they were eating to determine a price per day on that. Then did some extra math to figure out how much it cost per day to feed them homemade. Ten years ago, it was also cheaper to do homemade. Sometime I may do the math again to see if it still is, for me.
I can definitely say I had a lot more vet bills and “health bills” with kibble- I had to fight fleas and stuff that I don’t now. So there is that cost to factor in too.
January 31, 2013 at 8:11 pm
Thanks for the great article! We have been feeding our dogs homemade food for 5 years now. our Akbash has never had kibble. The bulk of their diet is cooked oatmeal. We follow Juliette de Baraicli Levy’s precepts and those of Dr. Pitcairn which seem pretty balanced. I have wondered though if the Akbash needs more meat… I wonder if more ‘natural’ dogs need a more meat like diet? I mean, an Akbash living in the mountains with his sheep would have to catch a lot of his own food, wouldn’t he?
February 1, 2013 at 3:53 am
Andrea, I don’t know for sure. I would imagine some “native” LGDs do manage to hunt some of their own food, but I would also guess that shepherds don’t want those dogs wandering around a lot, nor mastering the art of killing large prey (and thus being tempted to start eating sheep). So probably at best, those dogs catch some small rodents and whatnot, but still rely on humans for the bulk of their intake. And people in those situations are really going to be thrifty with what they choose to share with dogs. So those dogs may actually have a very modest diet.
February 6, 2013 at 9:37 am
Michelle, if you’re interested, I can supply you any quantity of ground pork at $1.50/lb. It’s easiest in bulk (think ziploc bags with 3-5lbs per bag) or in a chub. but we can pack it into buckets if you’d prefer.
I agree with you about $0.25/lb meat. I don’t think I want to know.
We cull sows and boars pretty regularly, and if we cannot sell them for human consumption we grind them up and portion the meat and feed it to our dogs out of the freezer. The animal is slaugtered and bled, and then cut into grinder-sized chunks and coarse-ground. It’s about 20% fat.
Reasons for culling: Usually evidence of joint pain or damage to leg/foot that is unlikely to heal, issues related to birth (prolapses, hernias) or behavior. We don’t process animals for food that are in any way sick; those get composted.
Makes a good base for a dog ration; ground meat is easy to mix with whatever you’d like to add in terms of carbs, and the dogs like it.
February 7, 2013 at 6:07 am
Bruce, thanks for the offer I’ll keep it in mind. I don’t generally use pork for dog food, just because of the trichinosis risk (since I don’t cook the meat). It’s supposedly killed by sub-zero freezing for a few weeks, but since I can get other meat in that same price range, I usually opt for other sources where I don’t need to worry about keeping track of how long something has been in the freezer. This year, my dogs are getting a lot of Old Ram, too! 🙂 Delish!
February 7, 2013 at 9:48 am
Trichinosis has been largely eliminated from the US pig herd, and the chances of getting it from wild game, particularly bear meat, the leading source right now, are way lower than getting sick from raw milk; a hundred million people eat pork every year in the US, and there are 10 cases of trichinosis reported annually. That’s at least two orders of magnitude less likely than a raw milk sickness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis
February 9, 2013 at 4:12 am
Bruce, part of the reason there is low incidence of humans contracting trich is because of USDA inspection, they flag any meat with suspect lesions. And commercial pork is farmed in such strict biosecurity facilities, the likelihood of exposure is low in the first place. And also, of course, simply cooking the meat kills trich, and most people cook pork thoroughly. Freezing works, too, as long as you do it long enough and cold enough. So comparison to raw milk is comparing apples or oranges, other than we can all agree good practices reduce risk.
But I don’t cook meat for my dogs, and I don’t prefer to keep track of freezing protocols. And, frankly, your place is far from biosecurity facility clean. I could say a lot more, but I’ll just stop there.
February 9, 2013 at 5:50 am
While I appreciate the slam Michelle, May I point out that you don’t wash your hands or take basic biosecurity steps in your own life, believing, as I recall, that some sort of contamination is beneficial? I’ll dig up the quote from your blog if you like.
That said, you didn’t address the basic numbers. Per consumer, raw milk is much riskier than pork from any source. I gave you a reference to my numbers; may I ask you to show me the incidence of trichinosis that makes pork any more risky than say, chicken necks, which from commercial operations usually have infection rates of 15 to 40% with salmonella being the most common, followed closely by norovirus
Salmonella contamination of chicken
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/iafp/jfp/1995/00000058/00000008/art00003
Various other contamination in chicken
http://www.foodpoisonjournal.com/food-poisoning-information/poultry-study-finds-alarming-rate-of-bacterial-contamination/
I think your concern about trichinosis is misplaced. I’d be much more concerned about the other elements of the diet.
February 9, 2013 at 6:11 am
Bruce, I’m not really interested in debating this with you. I choose to feed my dogs, and myself, the way I like, and I have my reasons. You eat and feed your dogs what you like, as you are free to do. I don’t need you to tell me how you think I should live my life, and I don’t need to justify to you my choices. And I’m not interested in buying anything from you, though thank you kindly for your offer. Move along….
February 9, 2013 at 9:17 am
You are concerned about a pretty darned low chance of contamination from pork, but get angry when I point out that chicken from all sources has a great chance of being contaminated.
I understand completely why you don’t want to talk about it.
February 9, 2013 at 5:05 pm
I don’t want to get sucked into a big debate about this, because there are many different philosophies on raw feeding, and to each his own. There are whole forums for discussion on raw feeding choices, and much heated debate. But I think it’s important to differentiate between the types of risks of food borne illness. Bacterial exposure is no big deal for dogs, they are built to eat stuff teeming with bacteria and tolerate it. They have a short digestive tract and a very high acid stomach, so they are much more robust than humans in this regard. So raw chicken is low risk, in my opinion. I certainly wouldn’t eat raw chicken myself, but I feed it to my dogs every day.
Even viral infection is something that healthy dogs will get, and get over, most of the time. But trichinosis can be nasty, and hard to diagnose, since vets aren’t used to seeing it. And it requires strong drugs to treat. It’s just my personal choice, I don’t usually feed raw pork to my dogs. As I said, freezing it adequately is a simple matter and many people probably do this successfully, it’s just not something that’s in my routine.
February 10, 2013 at 6:33 am
Biosecurity is something that you’ve mentioned, and I think it’s worth noting that when you feed a dog material that contains contaminants like e coli, that the dog can both become a carrier and shed e coli in feces, which are can then potentially be distributed all over the farm and household.
The risk isn’t that the dog will die; by your results it seems like they can tolerate a wide variety of microbes and viruses without harm to the dog. The reason I don’t feed chicken in particular is that I don’t like what it comes covered in, and I don’t want that sort of input of antibiotic resistant stuff into my farm or house.
I can’t say whether other stuff contained in raw chicken will survive the digestive tract trip, but e coli thrives in that environment.
I’m assuming that you’re using chicken that originates in confinement operations; most folks who feed chicken to their dogs do, as it’s the most readily available and cheapest. It’s also exactly what the studies I linked to above tested.
We are seeing more incidence of e coli infections from contact with animals at petting zoos; casual contact with no hand washing. We all have lots of contact with our dogs.
Examples:
http://www.wcnc.com/news/local/Officials–Petting-zoo-and-weather-cause-of-deadly-E-coli-outbreak-at-fair-178149811.html
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/oct/16/business/la-fi-mo-petting-zoo-e-coli-20121016
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/100808474.html
February 10, 2013 at 8:18 pm
Well, this drifts into a whole different topic, of the risks to humans when pet dogs eat raw meat. It is a hot topic in the dog world for sure. It gained elevated attention when the Delta Society announced that raw-fed dogs could no longer be in their program. They made the decision after a study came out that showed that raw-fed dogs do shed a higher microbial count than kibble-fed dogs (tho kibble-fed dogs are far from pristine- all dogs are dirty!). The DS felt that since service dogs often go into hospitals and the like, that the increased risk to immuno-compromised patients was not justifiable.
The raw feeding community was up in arms!! As in all things, there is a risk-benefit analysis to do. The foundation of the Delta Society’s philosophy is that the joy the dog brings to patients has proven, measurable health benefits, and offsets the risks of the bacteria exposure he also brings. It’s interesting to ponder where the DS decided to draw the line though. Since we know kibble-fed dogs are not without risk, how do we quantify that raw-fed dog pass a threshold that reverses the conclusion of the risk-benefit analysis? I suspect this is not an entirely logical conclusion, but one driven more by liability concerns. And probably with all dogs, kibble or raw fed, the biggest risk mitigator in their situation would be to wash the dogs right before they visit the hospital. But I don’t think they define a timeline for “last bath” in their protocol. So, go figure.
For people who keep raw-fed dogs at home, that’s another matter, since we have 24/7 exposure to them. We are all free to make our own risk-benefit decisions. Probably when there is someone immuno-compromised in the house, it may be wise to just go ahead and cook the dog food, and give up whatever benefits are offered by raw. This mitigates the risk regardless of where the food comes from. But as always, it’s a personal decision, and one person can’t tell another person what to do, because the equation is different for everyone.
For me, my understanding is that the “dosage” is the most important factor in whether or not we become clinically ill from food borne illness. If I eat a whole chicken leg with a very high count of salmonella, it’s probably going to at least give me some strong symptoms, if not make me very ill. But if I touch a dog that has eaten that chicken, my “dosage” of bacteria is probably going to be very small (probably akin to whatever amount is left on my cutting board even after I dutifully wash it). In that case, it may still trigger an immune response in me, but not enough to make me severely ill. And this is actually a good thing, as I’ll have built up some immunity. Then if I ever were to get a full-on exposure to salmonella, my immune response will be quick and strong- my system is not naive to that bacteria anymore. And, I am also just a very robust person who rarely gets very sick. I may choose not to feed my dogs raw food at all, from any source, if I were more fragile and got miserably sick frequently.
And as for farm and fair visitors, we are all wise to limit what they touch and make sure they wash their hands when leaving. That doesn’t relate so much to what we feed our dogs, but just the reality that farms and fairs have a lot of bacteria everywhere, and that city people are naive to most or all of it.
But this is only my choice in how I do things and my own rationale, I certainly am in no position to tell others what they should do. For people who are very worried about food borne illness, they should probably just thoroughly cook everything, whether it’s for human or dog consumption, and no matter where it comes from. For them, whatever benefits perceived from raw food may not outweigh the risks of getting sick.
March 8, 2013 at 6:38 am
Washington state is leading the nation in salmonella linked to chicken.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020510415_salmonellachickenxml.html
No cases of trichinosis reported this year in WA state.
January 30, 2014 at 9:37 pm
I know this is old news, but…
I feed out whole rabbit.
Bones and all.
Cheap, tidy, easy.
Cut in tallow or lard and fish oils for fat with ground up organ meats for vitamins.
Sell the hides and manure.
Done.
Trich is nasty and not worth the risk and in my personal opinion pork just doesn’t have a high quality, dense muscle fiber knit like I want for my dogs.
Raw chicken does pose an E. coli risk when fed to dogs, but not fresh, unspoiled raw chicken. The bacteria load of a spoiled say, whole chicken carcass, is high enough that bacteria will be shed and contaminate the environment. Even a dogs saliva is acidic enough to kill a small population of E. coli or Salmonella, but a large load can populate the dog itself and can be shed weeks after the offending carcass is consumed.
Experience and fact speaks here, I got poisoned by my GSD after he ate a spoiled chicken and then again 5 weeks later, both times the culprit was E. coli.
But these are just my thoughts and observations.
It costs me $0.66/lb to raise 36lbs every 12 weeks with one doe and one buck.
$0.62/lb to raise 160lbs every 12 weeks with 5 does serviced by one buck.
Rather that’s what it used to cost me when I bought all their feed, that’s also without selling the hides or manure or keychains. And that cost doesn’t reflect inevitable losses.
Now it costs me about $0.24/lb to raise 160lbs every 12 weeks.
Maggie
January 31, 2014 at 4:25 am
Wow, Maggie, interesting. So are you skinning and/or partially butchering out the rabbits before feeding them, or feeding them whole? I think rabbits are such an under-celebrated producer in our culture… I’d like to add them to our farm someday; but while I have a day job, am maxed out on adding new things to the chore list.
re: e. coli, did you have your dog tested to confirm that was the source? When I had it, the health dept interviewed me about what I’d eaten for 10 days back, because apparently its incubation period is long, so it’s very difficult to even figure out what the source might have been. So it seems it can come from lots of places, get “in things” in the kitchen, and continue to crop back up. That said, I have read studies that indicate that raw-fed dogs definitely do shed more bacteria than kibble-fed dogs. Since they are “designed” to tolerate spoiled food, it could be that they can host quite a colony of bad bacteria without any adverse affects to them, but like you say, shed more than usual, which could impact their human cohabitants.