In my continued musing over mineral supplementation for sheep and how Pat Coleby’s book and advice fit into that, I decided to do the rest of the “label” calculations for her mix, to compare to the Purina Goat Chow mix that’s working so well for me. I desired to be able to do an apples-to-applies comparison of Pat’s mix to what I can buy pre-mixed.
A Theoretical Pat Coleby Label
So, below I’ve made a table, and have hopefully correctly done the math to compare Pat’s mix to my Purina mix. The math is all variation on a theme for what I did with the copper calculations in this post. This first table is a “label” table, meaning that I just calculated what the concentrations are in the mix itself. The second table below accounts for my sheep’s consumption of the supplements and their hay intake, with notes on what our forage already has.
I’ve given kelp its own column, to see how it contributes to the PC mix, and what it’s offering if it’s fed standalone, as many people, and I, do. Kelp is harvested from nature, so its nutrient values are going to vary and cannot be guaranteed. The values I used came from Thorvin’s website and off the label of Thorvin kelp bag I have now. The calcium and magnesium numbers I’m using for the PC mix calcs are based on the brand of dolomite I’m purchasing; different brands have different ratios.
|
Purina Goat Chow Supp |
Thorvin Kelp |
Pat Coleby Sheep Mix |
Comments |
|
| Salt |
45% |
9% |
0.99% |
Sheep need salt, but some mixes are mostly salt, which is a waste of $$. |
| Zinc |
7,500 ppm |
12 ppm |
1.2 ppm |
Zinc is important for foot health. It binds with copper and iron, however. |
| Iron |
— |
622 ppm |
68 ppm | It binds with copper. |
| Manganese |
— |
60 ppm |
6.6 ppm | |
| Magnesium |
1% |
0.85% |
7.53% |
PC mix gets more from the dolomite. |
| Iodine |
— |
0.05% |
0.01% |
|
| Cobalt |
— |
4 ppm |
0.44 ppm |
|
| Selenium |
25-30 ppm |
0.3 ppm |
0.033 ppm | I had concerns about excess here, will discuss more later. |
| Calcium |
9-11% |
2% |
14% |
Too much binds with Phos, can cause bone/urinary probs. PC mix gets more from the dolomite. |
| Phosphorus |
8% |
0.1% |
0.01% |
Bind with Calcium. |
|
Potassium |
0.1% |
2% |
0.22% |
Hi levels block Magnesium & risk grass tetany. But also binds w/ iron. |
| Copper |
1,750 – 1,800 ppm |
4 ppm |
27,027 ppm |
Sheep are very sensitive to copper toxicity, so caution is needed. |
| Molybdenum |
— |
2 ppm |
0.22 ppm | Binds w/ copper. |
| Chlorine |
— |
6.5% |
0.72% |
|
| Sulfur |
— |
2.8% |
12.2% |
Important for foot health. Binds with copper, Se and thiamine (vit B). |
| Aluminum |
— |
289 ppm |
31.8 ppm |
|
| Boron |
— |
98 ppm |
11 ppm |
|
| Vitamin A |
140,000 IU/lb |
— |
— |
|
| Vitamin D |
IU/lb |
— |
— |
Should get enough from the sun? |
| Vitamin E |
750 IU/lb |
— |
— |
Bound up by iron, good for feet, so more is better for us. Green grass has plenty, but dry hay is low. |
| Feed rate |
.25-.33 oz |
0.5 oz |
5 mg |
Recommended feed rate for sheep. |
As-Fed Values for My Sheep
Next, I calculated the as-fed values for my sheep. My sheep are currently eating about four pounds of hay per day each; and am calculating mineral concentration based on a) Pat’s recommended 5g of her mix per day, b) what my sheep are actually choosing to eat of the Purina mix: 1.6oz per sheep per day, which is more than what Purina recommends on the label for goats and c) what my sheep are choosing to eat of the kelp, which is about the same as the mineral, and more than what Thorvin recommends for sheep.
Our forage profile is perhaps a little unusual, so my choices of which minerals I want and don’t want are probably not typical. But here is where the rubber meets the road in determining how these supplements line up with my grass profile.
| Purina As-Fed | Thorvin Kelp As-Fed | Pat Coleby Mix As-Fed | Comments | |
| Salt |
10,995 ppm |
2,199 ppm |
27.35 ppm |
I’m not sure what adequate amounts are? |
| Zinc |
183 ppm |
0.29 ppm |
0.004 ppm |
10+ in diet is adequate, we are already high (37 ppm), and zinc depresses copper. So I’d prefer to avoid. |
| Iron |
— |
15.2 ppm |
0.19 ppm |
50 ppm is recommended, our forage is 597. Levels above 400 tie up copper, so I want to avoid more of this. |
| Manganese |
— |
1.47 ppm |
0.02 ppm |
40 adequate, our forage is at 78, so this is a don’t-care for us. |
| Magnesium |
0.02% |
0.02% |
0.02% |
0.1 % recommended, 0.4% is max. Our forage has 0.24% so we’re already OK. But would be concerning if one’s forage was low… |
| Iodine |
— |
12 ppm |
0.15 ppm |
|
| Cobalt |
— |
0.1 ppm |
0.001 ppm |
|
| Selenium |
0.73 ppm |
0.01 ppm |
0.0001 ppm |
0.1 is deficient, 2ppm is too high- a very narrow range! Our NW soils are known to be deficient, so we have to add this. |
| Calcium |
0.27% |
0.05% |
0.04% |
PC mix is getting more from the dolomite. 0.4% is adequate, our forage has 0.53%. Too much causes bone/urinary probs, so want to avoid adding too much of this. |
| Phosphorus |
0.2% |
0.002% |
— |
0.3% is recommended, our forage has 0.32%. Binds w/ calcium. Our Ca:Phos ratio, in forage + supps, is 1.5, which is in the ideal range. |
| Potassium |
0.002% |
0.05% |
— |
0.65% recommended, 3% max; too high can bind with Potassium, causes grass tetany. Our forage is 3.19%, so I want to avoid more of this. |
| Copper |
44 ppm |
0.1 ppm |
61.7 ppm |
7-10ppm normally recommended for sheep, 14-20 if soil is high in Molybdenum. Since we have other copper-binders, our need is probably greater. Great caution must be exercised here, due to risk of toxicity. |
| Molybdenum |
— |
0.05 ppm | 0.001 ppm | Ideal is below 1ppm, above 4 causes copper tie-up. Our forage is at 4, so I want to avoid more. |
| Chlorine | — | 1,588 ppm | 20 ppm | |
| Sulfur |
— |
0.07% |
0.03% |
0.1% recommended, 0.4% is max. Our forage is at 0.36%, so this is another don’t-care for us. |
| Aluminum |
— |
7 ppm |
0.09 ppm |
|
| Boron |
— |
2 ppm |
0.03 ppm |
My Personal Conclusions
The interesting thing about Pat Coleby’s mix is that it doesn’t have as many added minerals as many commercial mixes do. I assume that she’s relying on the fact that kelp contains a plethora of trace minerals, and she’s only choosing to add a few key minerals that she feels are needed in higher concentration. The kelp makes up about 11% of the mix, so its nutrients translate by that ratio. But I find that to be quite small—the kelp’s nutrients fed in this quantity end up being almost negligible!
So, I think I’m going to continue to always present kelp standalone and free-choice, so the sheep have the most opportunity to get what they need out of all that kelp offers. There seems to be little risk of the sheep getting too much of something from the kelp, so I think it’s best to let them have as much as they crave (despite, perhaps, the cost!).
Since we already have adequate sulfur in our grass, if I did use the Pat Coleby mix, I’d probably omit that ingredient. The calcium and magnesium delivered via dolomite in the Pat Coleby mix are also things we don’t need, they only offer negligible amounts on top of our already-adequate amounts.
That leaves the copper in Pat’s mix, which in my opinion, is dangerously high for sheep, even despite her assertions that the calcium/magnesium quantities in the dolomite somehow buffer it. I could alter the ratio of copper to dolomite in Pat’s mix to dilute the copper concentration, but I see two problems with this. One, I’m not sure if the sheep would eat an almost pure dolomite solution, I suspect it doesn’t taste good. And two, I don’t want to get carried away with how much extra calcium and magnesium my sheep are getting, since that could cause other problems. So, in the end, I’m much more comfortable with the amount of copper offered by the Purina mix, for now.
But, when I compare the Purina mix to the kelp, all that it’s really offering me that I don’t already have is copper, selenium, salt, and vitamins A, D and E. Salt is easy to offer standalone, and I’m not sure if we really need the extra vitamins. So, now I’m starting to see, that my supplementation needs really come down to these two ingredients: copper and selenium. So I’m going to focus some more research on this. I’m considering whether purchasing a selenium/vitamin E mix for horses, and offering copper sulfate diluted in water, might be the best road for me.
In the end, I’ve decided the Pat Coleby mix isn’t right for my pasture. I still think her book is excellent, it’s what got me started in digging into this subject so deeply. And I think it may have led me to the solution for my hoof rot problems, which is huge. The book is well worth owning as a reference manual, to look up what all the minerals do, and to remind us of the notion of animals naturally craving what their bodies need. And I can’t discount Pat’s experience, that she’s worked with thousands of sheep over many decades with good success. So I think she’s definitely onto something.
But, I think it’s really just the case that mineral supplementation is complicated, and if you really want to do it right, you can’t just follow one person’s, or one company’s advice on what is a good supplement for everybody. There is no single label that’s perfect for every animal species, every sheep breed, every pasture, or every case.
Note: edited 2/20/13 to correct for some math errors accounted for in my other post about copper calcs.
The Collie Farm Blog 
December 26, 2009 at 10:51 pm
Thank you for the ‘labels’ or differences between each of the types of mineral supplements. Very, very good to know! I had also come to the conclusion that my goats didn’t really need the extra calcium and magnesium in the mix because of the test I had done on my garden soil and have been giving the mix without it lately. I will offer the dolomite free choice though. My water is also very calcium rich.
January 2, 2010 at 6:17 am
Wow, you have put so much time and effort into all of this, I really admire you. So this is just my opinion. If your hoof rot problems are HUGE and if this decision you have made does not make a noticeable difference, I’d put Pat’s mineral mix to trial for a limited time to see if IT WILL make a noticeable difference. As much as science has learned and is continually learning, even with all that info you have gleaned, there may be some connections or ingredients, or who knows what that has been overlooked. Just my $.02. Like I say, you’ve really done your research, and I’m impressed with your dedication. Have you tried just dusting their feet or maybe soaking them in sulfur? Feed them Garlic, it has lots of sulfur in it. I came down with itchy burning toes, and sulfur powder knocked it out immediately. So I don’t know, you say there is an adequate amount in your soil, yet if you have a problem, imo something is either missing? or at least not adding up. . . ? Dunno <=P
January 2, 2010 at 8:09 am
As an example of what I was trying to infer in my earlier comment, at:
Click to access Brunetti_Protein.pdf
I just ran across this statement:
In Grass Productivity, Andre Voisin
states that grass tetany (which is associated with magnesium deficiency) can be caused by an excess of ammonia dropping the blood’s content of magnesium as well as causing a poisoning of the bulbar respiratory center. Plants accumulate nitrates due to stress, such as drought. Plants produce more NPN (non-protein nitrogen)
instead of true protein when there are excesses in soil minerals such as potassium and nitrogen, or deficiencies in minerals such as calcium, sulfur and boron. If the magnesium levels are excessive in the soil, for example, the plant would accumulate either additional nitrate and/or NPN. This same plant will most likely be deficient in magnesium, which is necessary to prevent grass tetany, even though the soil contains an excess.
This all gets pretty complicated for my little pea brain, but it all seems rather counter-intuitive, so, then, my solution is rather simple. lol
January 2, 2010 at 5:40 pm
Doris, I don’t think it’s sulfur that I need. I think I’ve found that when the sheep are eating solely the Purina goat mineral supplement (plus kelp), all of the foot problems go away. I’m fairly certain its the copper in that mix that they are needing, and the fact that it doesn’t have some things that other mixes do- things that I already have too much of. When I started offering Sweetlix, the limping came back; so I think the “extra” things in the Sweetlix mix were robbing them of copper. I took the Sweetlix away a few weeks ago and went back to just Purina, and the lameness has subsided. So, in a sense, my problem is solved. The only remaining thing is making sure I understand why, and also making sure that I have a handle on the copper issue.
I had both my soil and my forage tested, the forage results should indicate fairly accurately what is bio-available to the sheep (versus soil analysis alone can’t always do that, as sometimes the plants don’t uptake what’s in the soil). The sulfur in our forage is 0.36%, 0.1% is recommended, and 0.4% is considered the max you’d want. Too much interferes with copper, selenium and thiamine absorption. I already know I’m too low in copper and selenium, so I’m fairly sure I need to be cautious about adding more sulfur. I did offer sulfur standalone to the sheep for a while, before I got the forage results back, and the sheep weren’t interested in it.
As far as foot baths and foot treatments, my goal is to get away from having to do frequent manual maintenence on the feet, and get the body to do its job fighting foot rot bacteria instead. I’m staring to get too many sheep to make it practical to be treating them individually.
The Purina mix seemed to solve the foot problem completely, and the sheep really love it. It’s almost a perfect mix to complement my forage. But I do have a few reservations about using it, despite it’s short-term success for me- the mineral oil in it, the fact that it may have too much copper (it seems with sheep the goal is to be giving them barely enough to prevent problems, to minimize the risk of toxicity), and that it’s kind of expensive since my sheep are wanting to eat a lot of it. So I may seek to replace it with something similar and cheaper that gives me more control over the copper amounts.
Michelle
January 2, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Doris, I’ve been reading the articles on acresusa.com too, they are really helpful in understanding all these laboratory results. I think this article emphasizes why you have to test both the soil and the forage to be sure you know how your plants are taking up what’s in the soil.
The magnesium in our soil was in the “medium” range. The forage tested very high in both potassium and magnesium, so that part is complicated. Potassium robs magnesium, but the plants are definitely able to present a lot of magnesium too. I’m assuming since I did not see any grass tetany symptoms, that I have an adequate enough balance there. I believe grass tetany is a bigger problem in other parts of the country, and in fields that have been heavily fertlized with NPK-type additives. I definitely want to avoid mineral mixes that have even more potassium, however, and a most of them do. This also indicates that I should avoid supplementing with apple cider vinegar, which people often give to boost potassium in pregnant ewes, to avoid birthing problems (and I think Pat Coleby recommends).
Our forage is high in calcium and sulfur and the soil tests in the “medium” range for boron (I didn’t get boron results for the forage). Our soil tested low in nitrogen, it must be that nobody has done chemical fertilization in a long time- the lab recommended adding 90lbs/acre. Given that, I probably don’t have risk of grass tetany in just the forage alone. My concern would be that I could create the risk by giving extra potassium via supplements.
Given that we were low in nitrogen, and yet our crude protein was high at 23.6%, it doesn’t seem like we would have too high of NPN; but I haven’t studied up as much on these numbers. The TDN was also good, at 72%. Since my sheep fattened well on the forage, I suspect the digestible protein and energy content they were getting was very good, and I have less reason to scrutinize that aspect of our feed at this time.
Really, my only complaint has been the foot rot, and after doing all this math and experimenting, I think it’s just copper that’s missing. Our forage analysis confirms that we have a big copper tie-up problem, and since I’ve been feeding the sheep copper in the right combination with other ingredients, the foot rot has disappeared. Our forage has just about everything else in spades (except selenium); so I really don’t need to be supplementing with much at all. I’m convinced that copper, ordinary salt, selenium and the kelp would be all I need. And that’s mostly what my sheep are deriving from the Purina mix, it has a few more things, but it’s pretty minimalistic, as compared to Sweetlix at least. Though Sweetlix is a good brand, I think, it made the lameness return, and I’m pretty certain it’s because it has things that tie up with copper. The other stuff in Pat Coleby’s mix (sulfur, magnesium, and calcium) are already OK in my forage; so I can really omit those from anything I were to mix myself.
I think Linda from Lindercroft blog pointed out in one of her comments that Pat Coleby does recommend doing your own soil and forage analysis and tailoring the supplement to your farm-that’s the ultimate best-practice thing to do. But, if you can’t for some reason (like if you’re buying feed most of the year that’s coming from lots of different sources) then her mix is kind of the next best thing, to hopefully be a shotgun-approach to what you might be needing. But in our area, you’d still have to add selenium to her mix, as I understand all NW soils are lacking it.
But I think now that I have all these numbers, and am seeing clear results from the Purina mix, all the evidence is corroborating, and pointing to copper as my deficiency problem.
Michelle
January 3, 2010 at 4:03 am
Excellent, thank you for going into detail, I am learning alot along the way. I still feel like too much is bouncing off tho,lol, it’s all so convoluted. But I do have a better understanding of how you came to your conclusions and it makes sense.
Nice to know you’ve found a good solution to the foot rot problem.
Pat says there’s enough selenium in the kelp. Have you found that to be true? I know I haven’t had any evidence of issues indicating a shortage.
January 3, 2010 at 5:35 am
Doris, it’s crazy complicated, isn’t it? I think it’s easier once you get a forage analysis done, because then you can just step through it item by item, look up the recommended amounts, calculate what your supplement is giving you, and start to flag the concerning areas. An Excel spreadsheet has helped me a lot, to do the math, and highlight the areas of interest and keep my notes. I’ve definitely spent a LOT of hours on it though, the math is a pain in the butt, and more than once I’ve found errors in my calculations and had to go back through them to reassure myself that I have it right!
Re: selenium; I didn’t pay extra for the test this year, partly because it’s generally accepted that NW soils are too low (and other parts of the U.S. too), and because I mostly wanted to focus on the copper this year. But next year I’ll do it, just to see. I found this study, it’s a bit old, from 1968, but I bet is still relevant, since there is proably no reason to think our soils have changed. There may be better references out there, I haven’t read up on this a whole lot yet.
I’m sure kelp varies, but my calcs for the Thorvin kelp indicate that at the rate my sheep are eating it, by itself, it’s not sufficient. The kelp has 0.01 ppm, as-fed, and buried in the PC mix, it’s 0.001ppm, as-fed (for my sheep anyway). Deficient is 0.1ppm, but excess is 2ppm, so it’s another tricky one, like copper is for sheep, to stay in the safe zone.
What’s really interesting is that copper, sulfur and calcium can all block absorption of Se- all things that the PC mix has a lot of… So, it seems using the PC mix could actually increase your need for Se supplementation.
Are you doing a lot of breeding? I think white muscle disease is most often seen in lambs and kids, and not so much in adult animals, right? Though it sounds like it is more complicated than just Se deficiency, that vitamin E plays a role as well, at least according to this article. But the scary thing about waiting to see if you see WMD is that its mostly irreversible, so it could have a devastating affect on a lamb or kid crop. So it seems to me that it wouldn’t be worth the risk, if I didn’t know what my forage had, I’d definitely make sure breeding animals were getting supplemented. I don’t think Pat Coleby’s book addresses this, because I don’t think it’s such a widespread issue in Australia. I’m not sure if anyone has ever quoted her advising U.S. folks on the subject or not?
Michelle
March 1, 2010 at 10:07 pm
[…] it turning to goop. And, I still keep revisiting the reality that I (in my siutation only) probably only need to supplement with selenium, copper and plain salt (not all the other stuff), so maybe I can still just figure out my own homemade gig. Still […]
March 2, 2010 at 8:56 pm
I was wondering if you had your feed analyzed ? I have done so in the past and have found out what the feed companies say is in their product isn’t always whats in the bag. I have found big differences in protien and mineral levels.
March 2, 2010 at 9:09 pm
Brenda, I haven’t tested any commercial feeds, because I mostly feed my own grass, which I do test. I’m not surprised to hear that feed bag tags aren’t accurate, but it is disappointing!
Michelle
September 26, 2011 at 3:50 pm
I think you should remember that Pat Coleby uses the dolomite lime not only for calcium and magnesium but also to prevent copper toxicity.
September 27, 2011 at 3:06 am
Andrea, true, her sheep book does claim that dolomite “buffers” copper, but she doesn’t explain the chemistry or mechanics of it. And I’ve never found another source that makes that claim, so I’m left stumped, I’m not sure if it’s true, or exactly what she meant by it. I get the impression her book wasn’t thoroughly edited, so it could have some errors in it. I would be curious if she discusses it more in any of her other books, I’ve only read the sheep one. It certainly is true that her mix contains very, very high concentrations of copper as compared to any other recommendation from anyone, or anything commercially made- even things which also contain CaMg(CO3)2. But the fact that she was getting by with it without massive die-offs would imply she had something working in her favor! Maybe nobody knows what it is.
September 27, 2011 at 4:12 am
I am pretty sure I have a copper deficiency in my flock right now. I had all ram lambs, more worm problems than normal and when I had them shorn, my three black lambs were all lightening. But I’m scared to try her mixture… But I am not sure what else to do. I have been feeding loose sheep mineral with molasses and salt with fluoride in it for 3 years but it doesn’t seem to be doing the trick.
September 27, 2011 at 12:21 pm
I had raised an American Barbados a couple of years back. I found him for sale on the side of the road one day when we went out to buy hay. He wasn’t doing very well. They had him on a powder replacement formula for sheep. He was having seizures from it. I took him to the vet he was only 3 days old. She put him on raw goats milk he did quite well on it and as he got older I started him on kelp and a natural diet. I also included Pat’s mineral mix free choice. He loved it. The first bucket only lasted a few days and then he slowed down on his consumption of it. His coat, feet, horns looked great; and his fecal check up where coming back negative even though I had not de wormed him in a while. I also have my horses on it. The 1 mare had really bad feet when I first got her and had on again off again lameness problems. I felt bad for her which is why I bought her. All her problems are gone now and she hasn’t been lame in 2 years now. Plus they all look great even when they have rolled and are covered in dirt. Their coats are so shiny that people driving buy the house if they see me or my husband we always get complemented for our animals. I have since then been putting out the minerals from the mix into there own containers instead of mixing them that way they can pick and choose what they want. So far nobody has overdosed on the copper. Plus my vet bill has been greatly reduced.
September 27, 2011 at 4:23 pm
Where do you live? Are you in North America? I’m in Canada and so far when I ask about powdered sulphur no one knows what I am talking about and the closest is an organic spray for fruit trees. Is it called something else here?
September 27, 2011 at 4:43 pm
Try looking for yellow sulfur and yes I live in the states. It took a while for me to find it also. One place you might want to try is duadiesel.com or try your local ag. center and see if they know anybody in your area that carries it. Tractor Supply carries it in a 50lb block also. Just break it into little pieces so that they can have an easier time getting the right amount into there system without licking their tongue raw. It’s also a good work out. lol. Good luck and please if you need anymore help please ask and I will do what I can to help.
September 28, 2011 at 2:15 am
Andrea it is a tough call. And minerals interact, so I think it’s often more than one thing that can be wrong if animals are just not as thrifty as they could be. Parasite resistance has a genetic component as well, so some animals in the same flock can succumb to much greater numbers of worms than their herdmates. If you raise butcher lambs, you can send in liver samples to assess their overall mineral profile. I am finding that to be helpful, as what they are getting or not getting does not always jive with what the hay lab results say. 😛 Just because a mineral is there in some form or another doesn’t mean they are synthesizing it.
The choice to feed more copper is personal, and comes with risk that has to be weighed against the potential benefits. But what led me to do it was knowing that a lot of other people have with good success, and that Pat Coleby has many followers and many years of experience. I think I found two examples of people who had a sheep suffer from copper toxicity using Pat’s mix, but it was always just one out of a group. So I assume that the risk is for some individuals, and not likely to suddenly kill a whole flock. But, there are no guarantees, unfortunately.
Re: sulfur, I believe sometimes you can locate it in powdered form, from places where you would normally get fertilizers or pesticides. Some people use powdered yellow sulfur to dust fruit trees to discourage insects. As Brenda says, I’ve also seen it sold in block form as well as a livestock supplement, so feed stores should be able to order it.
October 1, 2011 at 1:01 am
Okay so I am picking up a 25 kg bag of copper sulphate tomorrow morning… should be enough for the next 10 years (I only have 5 sheep in my permanent flock and right now I have 5 lambs that were born this spring)… The only sulphur I could find was sulphur flour which I bought from my local farm store. Is this the same as powdered sulphur? It is food grade. Will this work?
October 1, 2011 at 5:09 am
LOL, wow Andrea, you are really going for it! I think this sounds like the right sulfur- I think the most common way to find it is in the yellow powdered form. I found this interesting article on the Sweetlix website warning people away from using additional sulfur (Sweetlix does have some sulfur in their mixes, but much less than Pat Coleby’s mix):
Click to access Goat_019.pdf
I have found our forage to test very high in sulfur, and my sheep livers come back high-normal for it, so I try to avoid adding more.
October 1, 2011 at 9:54 pm
So far so good. They really went for it… my ram (who is black) had a blue tongue for awhile…
December 26, 2011 at 3:39 pm
I am playing around with minerals right now too for our four goats and three pregnant icelandic ewes. Interestingly enough, I found out that icelandic sheep NEED copper. Almost as much if not more than goats and that many of the breeders have issues due to lack of copper with this breed. I know of one breeder that actually puts out a cattle block for his icelandic sheep and that has the most copper you can possibly buy from the feed store. He noted that many of his issues went away when he did this.
Older and more primitive breeds of sheep need more copper. As well as colored breeds. It is mainly the white breeds of sheep that are more sensitive to copper. White breeds meaning that they are all white each generation. Our white icelandics still need just as much copper because even though they are white in color, they are still genetically a colored a breed.
Right now I have a sweetlix sheep block out for them as well as loose sweetlix goat minerals. I also have given them free choice kelp and free choice diamond v yeast (selenium). I am getting ready to order some feed sulfur, azomite trace minerals, dolomite ag and I will also put out baking soda at some point as well. All of which will be separate and free choice so I can see what they are choosing to consume. Icelandics usually need more cobalt than other breeds so I am looking into providing that as well.
Thanks for the info!
December 29, 2011 at 6:00 am
Stone Cottage Mama, indeed, there still seems to be a lot we don’t know. I think what some people forget is that *all* sheep truly need *some* copper, and are getting it; it’s trace mineral, after all, and it’s in almost all feedstuffs at least in minute quantities. It’s just that for some animals the range between “not enough” and “too much” may be narrow, and as you say, the ranges may be different for different breeds, and individuals. Pat Coleby’s book discusses the issue of colored sheep needing more; and she cites that historically, raisers of white sheep would sometimes keep a colored one in the flock, so they could keep an eye out for “rusty” wool color, which would clue them in that the whole flock needed more copper.
I keep learning more and more. I am currently using a cattle mix as well, mixed half and half with a more generic “ok for all livestock” mix, to try to achieve what I think my sheep need. I got a chance to speak to a salesperson from the company that makes the cattle mix, and I started off explaining how I was feeding it to sheep and anticipating his objections or warnings. But he interrupted me to say “I have lots of people feeding this mix to sheep….” and he wasn’t surprised at all. In fact, he contested my choice to “dilute” it with other things to limit their intake- he insisted they’d be fine eating the cattle mix free choice. Sooo, there certainly are a lot of diverse and conflicting opinions out there!
December 19, 2012 at 11:10 pm
Wow, I haven’t been in here for a while! I have enjoyed reading the follow up comments for this post!
December 20, 2012 at 4:31 am
Hi Linda- yes, it’s amazing how some blog posts keep the conversation going for years! People keep “dropping in” on these various posts I’ve made about Pat Coleby and copper- clearly this is a subject of interest to many besides us!
January 13, 2013 at 5:38 am
[…] can see the ‘label’ chart that Michelle, at The Collie Farm Blog, worked out for different brands of minerals mixes. Very […]
February 20, 2013 at 11:03 pm
I’ve been meaning to ask you this for some time. Are you sure the copper ppm is correct at 108,108? That seems in excess seeing as how the mix is made up of equal part so of sulfur and copper for most animals. So I just want to verify that is correct. It is true that I don’t understand how ppm works… or how to figure it.
February 21, 2013 at 5:11 am
lindercroft- well! I’m glad you asked, because this made me realize that I needed to update this post to reflect a math error in the copper calcs, which was pointed out by a reader in my older post about calculating copper. So, that is fixed now in this post. The copper isn’t as high as I originally calculated, though it is still extraordinarily high compared to what most commercial mixes now offer.
But it turns out, the numbers for the copper and sulfur still don’t match, and I believe this to be correct. One reason is that the copper in Pat’s recipe (and in most mixes) is only partly copper, it’s copper sulfate pentahydrate. The copper in this version only accounts for about 25% of the molecular weight of the crystalline substance (the rest of the weight is the other components: sulfur, oxygen and hydrogen). So, to calculate the amount of copper in that mixture, you have to do some extra chemistry math, which I cover over in that post. Whereas the sulfur additive we use I believe is pure sulfur, so the math is more straightforward for that, you just divide the weight of the sulfur by the weight of the total mix to get the ppm.
The sulfur in mineral mix labels, for whatever reason, is usually expressed in a percentage rather than ppm. But it’s easy to convert between, you just divide or multiply by 10,000. So 10,000 ppm = 1%.
One thing I see now that I didn’t account for before is that copper sulfate pentahydrate actually also contains one sulfur molecule! 🙂 Soooo, that actually adds more sulfur to the mix. Now hopefully I’ve done this math right, because I’m tired. But Sulfur accounts for about 13% of the weight in a kg of copper sulfate pentahydrate, so there is about 0.52 kg of sulfur contributed from that angle. So one batch would have 4.52 kg of sulfur, rendering the total sulfur in the mix to be 12%- slightly higher than what I had calculated before!
Chemistry is tricky math!
February 26, 2013 at 10:14 pm
Thank you Michelle… now… get some rest! 😉
November 17, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Found your blog interesting as a naturopath we are taught even if the minerals are available in the soil it doesn’t always mean that they are readily available to the animals or plants… there has been some huge issues with chemical sprays particulary glycosphate ( spelling is not quite right), locking minerals in the soil even if tests come out good. Also the animals ability to uptake minerals at times can be impaired and so can absorption. Somethings I always keep in mind …
In saying that I do modify for my own requirements…
November 17, 2013 at 10:58 pm
It was interesting to read some good liver testing has been undertaken. One of the most sensitive organs and probably one of the most accurate ways of deciding how to balance requirements though, not pratical for all of us… thinking of our horses 🙂
November 17, 2013 at 11:23 pm
Haha, Corena, yes, those with non-slaughter animals are left only with blood testing, which I understand isn’t nearly as accurate. I continue to submit liver samples once or twice yearly, it is really useful.
November 17, 2013 at 11:36 pm
Corena, yes, and I have found this to be true for all parts of the chain- some things can be in the soil, but not in the grass, and some things can be in the grass, but not in the sheep! So there are complex mineral interactions going on in all three layers.
Your mention of glypohaste is interesting. My understanding is that it’s just made up of oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, and phosphorous- so all naturally occurring elements which are common in soil. And supposedly, in its combined form, it’s rapidly broken down by soil microbes back into its sub-components. I wonder however, if an exception is when it’s use to wholesale-spray a field, and then that field is plowed within a few days afterwards? Plowing and disc’ing is so hard on soil microbes, that this may inhibit them from doing their job.
Our farm was used as a dairy for many decades before we were here, and mostly the fields used for silage. So I don’t believe many herbicides or pesticides were used. But probably plenty of manure was applied, and it was manure from cows which were being fed commercial mineral supplements. I believe that could partially explain our usual soil profile, because it’s not even typical for our county.
April 19, 2018 at 10:38 pm
I urge everyone to listen to Dead Doctors Don’t Lie, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARB73jV4mro And Somebody Needs to Go To Jail; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpGsH0028_k&t=4335s This man is a DVM, was a zoo consultant, worked with Marlin Perkins in Africa, is a pathologist, did over 26,000 necropsies on animals of all species, and 3000 autopsies of humans, and he came to the conclusion that all causes of disease are nutritional. He was working with NASA monkeys and discovered that selenium deficiency caused cystic fibrosis. The research industry had decided cystic fibrosis was a genetic human disease, and here he comes showing them in every proper scientific way, that it was caused by selenium deficiency. (the manager of the lab had staff soak the monkey biscuits in corn oil to increase their vitamin E , but this polyunsaturated oil CAUSED selenium deficiency. (This is why he is staunchly against all Polyunsaturates), and he was fired for it. He went on to study selenium some more and found selenium deficiency was responsible for keshan’s disease (30% of which also had cystic fibrosis), and muscular Dystrophy. We know that same thing as white muscle disease and floppy kid syndrome. When Wallach shared this research with Jerry Lewis, and got him excited, Jerry took this research with the MD board,and they fired him. When the animal research field blackballed Wallach, he went off to school to be a naturopath. In Oregon, a naturopath can deliver babies. He wrote the epic Diseases of Exotic Animals. This is only found in university libraries and nothing was ever written as a repeat. by anyone. If you look it up on Amazon used, it runs about $2000. So Dr. Wallach has a unique point of view, and extensive pathology experience.
So I listened to him in 1994 and was depending on kelp for the minerals, it turns out, he points out the Japanese eat 28 lbs of kelp a year and still don’t live past 80. (he has a couple of books detailing the centenarian cultures, they all get 60 to 72 minerals in their glacial milk which they use to irrigate with.) So I just began to take his minerals made from humic shale, But my long term goal is to get humic shale and rock dust and pour it all over my pasture and garden, so I can grow my own, because honestly, I am in financial straights, and my husband won;t buy the kelp anymore, because it’s $90 /50# now and the rock dust is cheap and it will help the plants grow better and have a higher nutrient level. And dolomite.
Pat Coleby would love Joel Wallach.
I love Pat Coleby, and William Albrecht. I recently began supplementing with calcium. I never have in all my life. Everything else, vitamin K2, magnesium, vitamin D, boron, zinc and copper. vit C, manganese, and more, as there are many members of the bone team. I thought I got enough calcium from my dairy foods. But I have had insomnia for years, and looked up the Wallach Encyclopedia, (transcripts of parts of his talks alphabetized), and the answer was calcium. I began to take calcium, and my bones began to feel better, and I began to listen to all of Wallach’s talks on youtube and found out ;
most forms of calcium , calcium carbonate being the most common, out of 1000 mg of calcium carbonate, we only absorb 14 mg. That’s not any better for our goats and sheep. I know dolomite has been a good supplement to prevent copper toxicity ( I mix them, and yes free choice for sheep). But if we can get them a better absorption put the dolomite on the pasture and put the calcium citrate and magnesium carbonate in a bucket for free choice for the goats and sheep. Calcium citrate is 50% absorbed, and tasteless. This is also what I take, from bulk supplements,
But on the copper and fear of selenium, if we can trust Wallach’s research on copper and selenium, we can take more selenium without freaking out than what we have been told. I began to give my cat 3 (900mcg) as she was looking like she was getting ready to die, I couldn’t get her to eat. within 2 days, she began to perk up and now she is back to the pistol she was. ( she’s at least 14).
I began to take 900 mcg too, but study Wallach’s material. He has a book called Let’s Play Doctor. And Immortality (about the centenarian cultures). In case anyone decided that animals are too different from each other and humans to consider the nutrients, know that all animals have the same needs for the 90 nutrients. Some might be able to make their own B12 or vitamin C, but they still need it. Cats and dogs make it but are not efficient at making it (they make 1 or 2 mg) In their natural raw diet, they get C in the tissues, and adrenal glands. Also goats are known to be the most efficient makers of vitamin C and yet what do they crave and desire? Roses. Known for their vitamin C levels. I give mine chewable C for stress.
So don’t be afraid to give calcium to your animals, Especially if they get live greens- there is vitamin K1 in that which they can convert to K2, which is a bone vitamin. It drives the calcium to the right places. They need a lot more than anyone wants to admit. After listening to Wallach, I realized I have had osteoporosis since my teens. So now I am trying to regrow my bones. He says it can be done.